Bad hires. These are two words that HR managers and stakeholders in the recruitment process in any company fear. But in a municipal Fire Services setting, those two words are particularly troublesome. 

A Fire Services hire is with the service for an average of 25 -30 years. A good hire becomes a long term, valuable asset while a poor one becomes a financial and administrative deficit that can last decades. 

Studies have proven that one way to help ensure recruits have the right skills for the right job is to purposefully recruit for soft skills. And more specifically, the soft, or people skills, required for the unique task that person is being hired for. 

At ProspectHR MMI we’ve developed the only proven Multiple Mini Interview (MMI). Over the past 25 years, it has been extensively tested, evolved and improved so it is now the definitive MMI for identifying soft skills in the recruitment process of medical, municipal and educational institutes. 

Recently the City of Rochester, MN Fire Services included our MMI in their early recruitment stage for the first time. We caught up to Caleb Feine, the Assistant Fire Chief for the City of Rochester, MN and their HR Business Partner, Kari Berns and asked them a series of questions to give readers a glimpse into their experience with the MMI, the challenges they were hoping to overcome and the outcome. 

Interviewer: Recruitment for fire services hasn’t changed much in decades. I’m sure this is true in the City of Rochester. What challenges were you facing that spurred the idea of changing your recruitment process? 

Caleb: Fire Service jobs in the City of Rochester are highly attractive and each year we are happy to get up to 200 applicants. Our first challenge is to shorten that long list of initial applicants into a smaller Eligibility Roster. 

Interviewer: How do you shorten that list? 

Caleb: In the past we’ve done two things to determine who will be placed on the Eligibility Roster: 

● A Phone Screening 

● A PEP test

Kari: The Phone Screening took several days and many employee hours to complete. For instance, it took 3 weeks and 2 people to screen 80 candidates, plus time to coordinate with candidates to complete the PEP test and review those findings. It was a lot of work. 

Caleb: And most importantly, we didn’t feel that the Phone Screening process was as equitable as it could be. We wanted a process where each individual who wanted an opportunity to get in front of us, could. I’m a believer that the best way to get to know a candidate is to get them in front of a real person. This gives everyone the best opportunity to show their best selves. 

Kari: That’s where the idea of working with ProspectHR MMI came in. 

Interviewer: Where were you first introduced to ProspectHR MMI? 

Kari: It was at the Annual Fire and Rescue International Conference in Kansas City last year. One of our Deputy Chiefs was at a session where the Fire Chief from Burlington, Ontario was discussing her experience exploring and implementing alternative methods for recruitment. And from what I heard, it sounded like this could be a good fit to meet our goal of getting people in front of us in a manageable way. 

Interviewer: Okay, so you’re curious about ProspectHR MMI, thinking it might be an answer to the challenge of replacing the Phone Screening and PEP test in your initial recruiting process. What happened next? 

Caleb: We connected with Helen Hale Tomasik at ProspectHR MMI and she walked us through the process.

Interviewer: And how was that? 

Caleb: Helen was our key contact and she was incredibly helpful and responsive. She quickly gave us the information we needed to see how the MMI could fit into our process. 

Kari: If we emailed Helen with a question or a request, we knew we’d hear from her soon. She was super responsive to us. 

Interviewer: What were the main benefits of the ProspectHR MMI for you? 

Caleb: It would help us meet our goal of shortening our initial applicant pool down for our Eligibility Roster and each person would be given a fair chance to get in front of someone, face to face. Also, the MMI would help us identify soft skills that are crucial to the role. 

Kari: Also, we really liked the benefit of having the flexibility to make it our own. Another benefit that was very important in our decision to move forward was the validation and research behind the whole ProspectHR MMI process. The process is validated, the questions (scenarios) have solid theory behind them. Everything is backed up by science. That was going to be important when we were getting buy-in from stakeholders.

Interviewer: Were there things you wanted to modify or change about the MMI? 

Kari: We were interested in modifying scenarios to more closely match our needs. Helen worked with us not only in modifying the scenario but also helping us to understand how important it is that any changes go through their panel of experts so that we don’t introduce bias or other unwanted elements into the station. 

Interviewer: What was most useful to you when getting buy-in from various stakeholders? 

Caleb: The process was, in a word, bulletproof. The why is there. And in our business, the why is very important. 

Interviewer: Were there any hesitations about moving away from Phone Screenings and the PEP test? 

Caleb: (laughing) Changes to process always ruffles feathers. Change is hard. Fire Service professionals hate how it is and they equally hate change. 

Kari: For us, it was easy to talk to stakeholders because we could show that the PEP wasn’t the right fit for this process and most people were happy to step away from it. 

Caleb: I went to meetings at every fire station over three days. I talked them through the process we currently have, the changes we were proposing and the positive outcomes we predicted. 

Interviewer: And? 

Caleb: It was very well received because I could provide the “why.” In my role I like to say that if you ride a fire truck, you’re my responsibility. It’s my job that my team has the best information on how we’re recruiting. It’s so they feel comfortable with the process but also so they can share this information with people they know who may be interested in applying to Fire Services. Our current team are my best champions in the community and the best recruiters we could have! When they tell people to apply and they tell them what to expect and it’s correct, that’s critical. 

Interviewer: Back to the time when you were selecting which stations/scenarios you wanted in your circuit. How did that go? 

Kari: We sat down with the full list of scenarios and asked ourselves, how do we make this work for us? It was important to drill down to the basics of what we were looking for. What components are crucial for a successful, resilient hire?

Caleb: Yes, we talked about what competencies were critical for new hires. It didn’t take Kari and I long to come up with our list. We chose the scenarios with confidence. Looking back just the process of identifying soft skills we were looking for gave us a lot of clarity. 

Interviewer: Great, you’ve got your scenarios chosen and Helen has helped you modify where needed. Looking back, how would you rate the ease or difficulty in the initial implementation of the MMI? 

Caleb: Initially it was a bit difficult but that’s because we were building our stations from scratch and also having to do the work of identifying the skills we were after. This was all brand new to us. Lots of unknowns and learning. 

Kari: Next time will be easier because we did all the legwork this time. 

Caleb: Yes, next time it will be rinse and repeat. It’s reproducible. The things we learned along the way we will incorporate and adjust. 

Kari: I’d sum it up saying that the initial implementation was of intermediate difficulty but will get easier and easier as we move forward. 

Interviewer: Were there any bumps in the road when you were implementing the MMI? 

Caleb: Unexpectedly, the biggest hurdle was finding the right place to do the MMI. The venue was a bit tricky. 

Kari: We needed a place for five days. It had to have enough room to host eight different stations, each with their own sense of privacy. 

Caleb: It had to meet ADA accessibility requirements, have bathrooms, parking and be available. 

Kari: But we found it. 

Caleb: We thought outside the box and found a wedding venue that was available when we needed it. It was a historic building, open concept with a full second floor so we could host 4 stations upstairs, and 4 down. It really was perfect. 

Interviewer: That’s great! Now that you had the space, how did you pick interviewers for each station? 

Kari: We handpicked interviewers. Each had an existing role in the department with a number of years experience. We wanted diversity in our interviewers and we ended up with a great cross section.

Caleb: Picking the right interviewers was key. 

Kari: We picked interviewers from HR, from Fire line staff and administrative assistants. We wanted as many different types of people as possible to interact and listen to our candidates. 

Caleb: The upside of this diverse interview pool was that we got buy-in on our Eligibility Roster. When you are part of the process, when you see it being done equitably, you’re invested. You talk to coworkers about the experience. You have a stake in the next group of recruits. 

Kari: Interviewers had very positive experiences. They are going to be working with some of the people they met and spoke to today. I’d say that, compared to the Phone Screening, this gives us 100% more engagement and buy-in. 

Interviewer: How was the experience of training your interviewers? 

Caleb: We trained them using the great MMI Interview Training video that Helen shared with us. They watched it ahead of our first MMI interviews and then on the day of, I got everyone together to go over a Q+A. We talked about how to interview properly, how to follow up on candidate talking points correctly and how to score. It worked very well. The interviewers were well trained and ready. 

Interviewer: What was the candidate's experience with the MMI? Did you get feedback? 

Caleb: We went into this looking for feedback. So we created a card with a QR code that each candidate would get at the end of their circuit. The QR code went to a quick survey asking for their input on the process. They also got a water bottle and a snack which we thought was a nice touch. A positive candidate experience was really important to us. 

Kari: During the MMI the feeling from interviewers and candidates was excellent - it was very comfortable. 

Caleb: My job was to be on the speaker with introductions, instructions and most importantly, I was keeping time. They had 7 minutes at each station so I had to keep an eye on the watch and tell people when to “rotate.” By being on the speaker I was able to set a tone for the day. I wanted everyone to feel welcome and relaxed because that way, they had the best opportunity to show their best self and that is my main goal; giving candidates their best shot. 

Kari: The candidates seemed relaxed, laid back. I didn’t see a lot of nervousness. No one was looking like they wanted to run out and go home (laughs). And that kind of feeling gives us the best indication of a person’s fit for the role. When someone is nervous we don’t get to see the best in them. 

Caleb: Lots of recruitment can feel intimidating, we wanted the opposite. This wasn’t a grind, it was an experience. Everyone seemed engaged and open.

Kari: To your question about feedback, the QR code was well used. We received feedback from approximately 50% of candidates which is high. 

Caleb: The positives that were mentioned were the venue, the feeling of having a conversation and being welcomed. They were comfortable. 

Kari: We were pleased with the candidate feedback. It reinforced our move to the MMI. 

Caleb: Ultimately, I like to put myself in the shoes of the candidates. It’s key to me that if someone applies to the Fire Service they are given the opportunity to make an impression. Many times, when people apply they don’t get an interview, they are disappointed. They are interested in a role but they don’t get a shot. This whole experience of adding the MMI into our process gives them the shot. I really can’t say enough about how it enhanced our recruitment process. I feel really good about it. 

Interviewer: Did you need to make any special accommodations to any candidates?

Caleb: Six candidates needed to be interviewed virtually due to distance.

Interviewer: How did that go? 

Caleb: It went well. I walked around with a tablet with the candidate on it … I carried them from station to station. 

Interviewer: What key differences did you see between the old way of initially sorting candidates into the Eligibility Roster, and the new way with the MMI included? 

Caleb: Problems are solved at the kitchen table of a fire house. At that table, soft skills matter. The MMI helped us see those valuable soft skills in candidates early in the process. Soft skills the phone screen would not have illuminated. 

I think in the past with Phone Screening and the PEP we were missing out on really great candidates. It goes without saying that sitting in front of someone gives them the best opportunity to shine. Life experience shines through in how they answer questions. There is a richness, a fullness to the answers that would be lost in a Phone Screening. 

Interviewer: Did you see an improvement in the diversity of candidates making it from the initial large pool of applicants to those who made the cut and are placed on your Eligibility Roster? 

Kari: As we work to increase the diversity of our applicant pool, we reduced the minimum requirements to apply. Certificates, etc. can be earned at a later date, but what we were focused on were the soft skills. Skills that cannot be taught. Either you have them or you don’t.

Caleb: Through this change in requirements, we did get a more diverse pool than historically. 

Interviewer: If you were speaking to another professional in the same industry, would you recommend the ProspectHR MMI? 

Caleb: Yes. 

Kari: Yes and in fact, we’re both actively promoting the idea of using the MMI in other departments in the City of Rochester. Right now we’re about to launch our first MMI to hire an administrative assistant. 

Caleb: The more people in the City that we can involve in MMIs the more buy in we will have. When someone is part of the process they understand it and can champion it. 

Kari: Ideally we’d like to see department to department interviewers. Professionals who are trained to be interviewers and can step in to help other departments, other than their own, recruit and select using the scenarios that are critical to their specific area. 

Interviewer: What excites you most about using the MMI in more recruiting situations in the city? 

Kari: The City champions efforts to improve equity. Lived experiences are important and allow us to reach a broader scope of candidates. The MMI is perfectly positioned to be part of this movement to bring more people into the City as employees and that’s exciting. 

Caleb: We’re discussing using the MMI as part of our Captain promotion process. We want to have another way to look at skills that maybe we haven’t looked at during Captain promotion before. We are going to use MMI interviewers from outside of our fire department to remove the perceived bias that our firefighters believe exists in our current internal promotion interview process. The MMI gives us a non-subjective way to test the soft skills of our future leaders. 

Interviewer: This conversation has been inspiring. I am so happy to have heard about your experience and the “why” behind the introduction of the ProspectHR MMI into the early stages of your recruitment process. So, in a nutshell, can you wrap our conversation up with a summary? 

Caleb: The ProspectHR MMI is a game changer. Once it’s implemented it’s easy to recreate year after year. I believe it is the future of recruiting. I’m sold on it. 

Kari: We give it the highest marks. We’re sold on it from both sides of the table, our side and the candidates.

Below are photos of the venue. Photo one shows the size of the space and welcome area. Photo two shows the privacy of the station area.